I want to share the comments I receieved on email
Madan wrote
Dear Vishnu et al.,
Western Medicine and its logic as we have it today is still an "infant" - The one simple question, to provide us the required mental agility to keep us from 'premature closure' and to keep the arguments and discussion alive ...
"Is there a need for a better theory of health and disease and cure and healing?"
I am sure even Selvan will agree that there is a need for something new and more convincing - the contemporary concepts fail on many, many counts!
Can Shastra guide us and where in Shastras are the clues for Medicine and the Sciences?
Selvan's "mechanistic" inclinations is natural, is just one of the ways of looking at the workings of the body - very much the Newtonian school of thinking and Newtonian Confidence with its own strenghts but also major limitations. Alex will provide a different view about the limits of such a 'materialistic' route to understanding the body.
Hope it will not be long in this discussion that we will arrive at the need to invoke the 72,000 nadis and such like.
Vishnu, I am so happy to have triggered you into this dialogue; it might seem that the deepest understanding and respect for the knowledge in Charaka Samhita Su 25 #3-31 is another example of how shastra can guide science - looking forward to more.
Selvan wrote
Western Medicine and its logic as we have it today is still an "infant" - The one simple question, to provide us the required mental agility to keep us from 'premature closure' and to keep the arguments and discussion alive ...
"Is there a need for a better theory of health and disease and cure and healing?"
I am sure even Selvan will agree that there is a need for something new and more convincing - the contemporary concepts fail on many, many counts!--Of course, yes. This is due to our own limitations to grasp th subtle changes. If ancient concepts convince us, this is what we need to achieve. In order to get convinced, what we need to have. This is the real debate we all have with even Ayurveda.--Selvan
Can Shastra guide us and where in Shastras are the clues for Medicine and the Sciences?
Selvan's "mechanistic" inclinations is natural, is just one of the ways of looking at the workings of the body - very much the Newtonian school of thinking and Newtonian Confidence with its own strenghts but also major limitations. Alex will provide a different view about the limits of such a 'materialistic' route to understanding the body.--Shastras are all came only through inquiries and experimentations using whatever the tools they had. In fact, Rishis used their body to understand how the body works. But, the modern medicines uses tools (outside of the body) made by the body to determine what is going on with the body. Here, the limitations is our ability to make the tool at par with the body to diagnose or treat. These limitations only will pave ways for our explorations...Only through form, the formless will be understood, even the working of the body. One aspect to pursue: Can Naadis be performed in complete term with available modern tools? or is it necessary?
How much form is needed, what kind of form, how it needs to be, etc. - These are all things what we need to understand and this is what we are striving to achieve. If Ancient science has already worked out, then, why we need modern science. In my mind, it is the natural progression that had happened due to limits of either our own understanding of what Rishis has perceived or whatever they perceived might have had its own limitations. This is where my agreement is to get the clues to pass through where we cannot make dent with modern science. Modern medicine does not stop its exploration (obviously due to its own limitations). If we were to follow the ancient science/medicine, we may have to just accept and move on. I would rather prefer that it should be going back and forth- like bed side to bench side and bench side to bed side. To understand the body or even the formless, we need the body. I look forward to Alex's view on this. Perceived limitations of our body will only help us to understand the limitlessness of our body. Any form has to become formless at some point. The form is not stable. I believe in the formless that is what really exists. This is the reason, each form finally goes back to formless and it recycles. Formless to form and form to formless. All we are trying to do is how much or what extent we can maintain the form with our understanding. This is the struggle with Ayurveda and Modern Medicine. In my mind, Ayurveda has edge over modern science since it uses the body or the form to stabilize the formless and in turn to preserve the form. Let us continue with our deliberation taking one major aspect: Health and Disease as Madan proposed. --Selvan
Hope it will not be long in this discussion that we will arrive at the need to invoke the 72,000 nadis and such like.
Vishnu, I am so happy to have triggered you into this dialogue; it might seem that the deepest understanding and respect for the knowledge in Charaka Samhita Su 25 #3-31 is another example of how shastra can guide science - looking forward to more.
Selvan wrote
Learn how to use what nature is providing us. Yes, grandmother and mother used Cow Dung to clean the floor of our hut, Dried Cow Dung to use as fuel, Cow Deng to reduce swelling in the leg, etc...We have relatively had a very healthy living... We used only earthen pots to cook...We ate seasonal vegetables and fruits by living oneness with the nature. We drank the well water. We have now altered everything...We are what we eat...
My response
Dear Selvan
At the same time we must not forget that healthy were those who survived. The death rates in first 5 years were horrible. Total average life expectancy was 34 years. Those who survived beyond that were the only ones who did enjoy a very healthy life.
Man has the most unnatural way of living. No other animal uses even cloths.
One should follow the advice of Vagbhata
अनुयायात् प्रतिपदम् सर्वधर्मेषु मध्यमम्॥
We should avoid extremes and get the benefits of all diverse options. Raw nature is extremely punishing to the weak. Only those who survive it can really enjoy it. At the same time modern generations way of life is virtual reality which is totally divorced from nature and very unhealthy. One should find a suitable mix of natural and synthetic.
Selvan wrote
Dear Vishnu,
Amen. Yes, suitable mix
Looks like to read my mind. Believe me or not, this is exactly I was thinking after sending my email and sitting on the toilet (I dwell into things while I am in the bath room).
The challenge now is to go and practice what was laid out during ancient time. This is where comes, creating an new science of life using both modern and ancient science, and creating a balance and use the best of both. This is what I was planning to write.
Thank you, again. It was a perfect telepathy...Again, through form only one can achieve...
My response
Dear Selvan
Form is the effect as well as cause. Form is generated by interactions of innumerable tiny particles and forces acting on them. Once the form is generated as an effect of this celestial dance it will invariably affect everything that happens to it. Form will produce constraints to what is possible and what is not. Form is the first thing that is generated from Soul. आत्मनो आकाशः संभूतः Ayurveda is entering the realm of abstract here. We need insights from theoretical physicist here.
Madan wrote
The much required clarity offered in Charaka Samhita about food and health and disease and how to use this knowledge as a guide for developing systems for the future will reveal itself as Vishnu takes us further into the adhyaya and verses 3 to 31 of the Sutra Sthana of Charaka Samhita [Charaka Samhita Su 25 #3-31]
Till then ... Beware / Attenzione / Vorsicht / Méfiez-vous / tenga cuidado and be prepared with the following "logic", that one ugly five letter word, we all hate so much:
- Beware of trying to understand the whole by the arbitrary isolation of the separate components or by hazy or forced abstractions.
- It has often been said that "nature is simple" - illusion!
It is our mind which looks for simplicity to avoid effort.
- Seek simplicity - and distrust it.
Vishnu, please do suggest background reading for all of us for greater clarity about Tattvas in Samkhya [Purusha and Prakrti] & Tattvas in Shaivism [Shuddha tattvas, Shuddha-ashuddha tattvas, Ashuddha tattvas] and implications. This might seem essential knowledge for appreciating the frame of reference in which one side of the unfolding story of Charaka Samhita Su 25 #3-31 and its messages and reasons for its wisdom.
(Selvan, the logic in Charaka Samhita was documented for all to study - 3000 or possibly even more years ago!! - Walmart who seem to rule what the world eats was ... "was founded by Sam Walton in 1962, incorporated on October 31, 1969, and publicly traded on the New York Stock Exchange in 1972" ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Wal-Mart - and just two years short of its 50th anniversary and if one wishes to compare the time in existence in a "human embryonic development time scale" ... Walmart's history is just past day no. 4 post-fertilization. Wait for the day when knowledge from Charaka and the other Samhitas will form the basis of Fortune companies traded in the premier stock exchanges around the world).
Selvan wrote
Yes, the form is the cause and the effect. Soul can only be realized/understood/appreciated through form. If there is no form, we cannot understand what it is. Yes, the form has limitations and hence, I said earlier, it has a finite time, like our body.
Yes, form will have constraints which is due to what is the nature of that particular form.
What is Soul? Is it formless? Can we know or understand the soul without the form? In my mind, it is not possible.
The challenge for us is to how long we can keep the particular form going...like our body.
Each form has its own constraints. I am convinced it is made purposely to realize/achieve the particular purpose. Once it is done, it has to be converted into some other form in order to sustain what has been created. It is the balancing act and it is the continuum.
How to maintain or sustain the body and what we should do to achieve this. Here, Ayurveda is the only answer?
Considering the way we live now, what would be the best approach.
In my mind, all medical approach is to prolong the life...whichever is doing the best job with our own understanding we should follow. And, at the same time, we should strive for leaning more about it. Our job is to understand with the tools in our hand and formulate one for each individual through knowledge gained from both ancient science of life and modern science. This is what I have been championing for.
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